I need help stabilizing max!!

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
amandaa
Member
Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 13 Aug 2018, 13:45

My baby max is a 3 year old, 80lb German Shepard. He was diagnosed with epi when he was around a year old.He gets feed 1–2 a day 4 cups each meal. He gets his enzymes from enzyme Diane. He gets three scoops of enzymes and the measurement is 1/2 teaspoon. I’ve tried him with 4 and even 5 scoops of enzymes but it wasn’t working for him. I just tried him on 3 scoops three days ago and i thought we had a winner. But this morning he has gone poop 3xs and it’s just super soft and sloppy, if that makes any sense. He’s on tylosin and has been on it since feb. of 2018. He gets a total of 4 pills a day, two in the morning and two in the evening but even with the pills his poop has not firmed up like a normal dogs poop should be. He gets a b12 shot every month and is due for his shot next week. Ever since he was diagnosed about 2 years ago I have yet to get him stable, and I feel completely lost and helpless. Im not sure what I’m doing wrong or what I need to do to help my furbaby and stablize him.

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Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Olesia711 » 13 Aug 2018, 17:39

HI Amanda,

You posted in the wrong place...and no one is seeing your post.... i am going to ask the president to move this to the forum so folks can actually help out....

OnNce your topic is there, i will also try to help you
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

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Mister Admin
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Posts: 76
Location: Fleurieu Peninsula
Country: Australia
Pet name: Archie & Zilli
My name: Craig

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Mister Admin » 13 Aug 2018, 17:58

Have just popped this topic into the EPI4DOgs Forum for all to see...

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Madelon
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Posts: 1317
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
State: Tennessee
Pet name: Doc

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Madelon » 13 Aug 2018, 20:00

Thanks Craig - you beat me to it!

Amanda - welcome to our EPI family. A few things stick out at me. Have you tested the B12 lately? A lot of EPI dogs have to have more than a once a month shot to keep their levels up. I would go back to the beginning and basically start over - can't tell you how many times I've had to do that - feed smaller meals 2-3x a day so if you're feeding a total of 4 cups a day 2 cups at each meal would be the most I would feed - if you're feeding 6cups a day I would feed 3x a day 2 cups each. I would also go back to the beginning of 1 level teaspoon of enzymes per cup of food, mix in luke warm water, mix with food and incubate for 20-30 minutes.

If you could add a signature to your profile with your diagnosis date, test scores, current food, enzymes, supplements, etc. it will help us be better able to offer suggestions without have to ask so many questions.

Try not to worry - easier said than done I know - we are all here to help you.
Madelon, owned by DOC. DOC dx EPI 5/2015 = TLI < .4, B12 406; Folate >24. DOC taught me so much and together we battled and overcame EPI, food sensitivies, environmental allergies but we lost the cancer battle. DOC was dx with hemangiosarcoma 5/2022 and crossed the rainbow bridge July 24, 2022. He is and always will be the love of my life, my soulmate, my heart dog.

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Miss Maddie Moo
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Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Miss Maddie Moo » 14 Aug 2018, 07:45

Hello
I agree with Madelon i wouldnt go above 2cups per feeding.Go back to the 1tsp per cup of food.
Also can you tell us what food you are on ? is it below 4 % fibre and grain free.
B12 most dogs cant last a month i know mine couldnt and what alot of us do is give the wonderlabs B12 with there food.
Tylan have you chaecked the dose is correct.
So lets take a deep breath and start again.
Maddie DX April 2011 along with low B12 she was feed with a low fibre food below 3% , fat was not restricted ( she wasnt good on pea based foods ) She initially had a course of B12 shots weekly over a period of 6 months and then we used the B12 pills from Chemeyes in the UK . We used Panzym and slowly had to increase the dose as she aged when she was first DX she was 23kg but she gained weight quickly and got back to 33 kg .
Maddie gained her angel wings in Jan 2018 at the age of 10 to a condition unrelated to EPI.
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Barb
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Posts: 918
Country: United States
State: New Jersey

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Barb » 14 Aug 2018, 13:47

Hello, Amanda,

Welcome to you and Max.

Try not to get discouraged.....we know how hard that is when our pups are not doing well. We have all been where you are.

I agree with what has been said about dosage of enzymes. I would go back to 1 teaspoon of enzymes per cup and give 2 cups of food per meal. I also have a dog who could not hold his B12, so we supplemented with Wonderlabs Pet Factor (with Intrinsic Factor) after the initial round of injections. He still takes the B12 pills.

I would also recommend keeping a daily log/journal of everything you give Max and the amounts and the resulting poos. This will help you to see what is working and what isn't. There is something about seeing it written down that clarifies it for us. You can download a blank log form from our site, or just keep a notebook.

Many, many of our dogs have had setbacks where we have to "go back to the drawing board" and start again. It is like solving a mystery. You keep gathering the clues until you find the right combinations that lead to solutions.

Ask as many questions as you have or vent if you need to.

Barb

amandaa
Member
Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 14 Aug 2018, 13:51

He got tested for his b12 dec. of 2017. His levels were really low so we started him on b12 shots every 2 weeks and then in feb. Of 2018 the vet told me that his level should be at a normal level and to give him it once a month. I’m worried that if I feed him smaller meals 2-3x a day he won’t eat. He lost his appetite 3 months ago and was barely eating 1 meal which is why i upped him to four cups, because if he was only gonna eat once 4 cups seemed enough for him. It wasn’t until maybe two weeks ago he began to get an appetite Back so I began to give him an extra meal. Last night he only had one meal and didn’t eat until almost midnight. I basically free feed him. His appetite can be all over the place. One day he won’t eat at all and the next he’s slamming him food bowl on the floor because he wants more food. I’m not sure how to do the signature. I’ve seen people with it but I never understood how to do it.

Madelon wrote: 13 Aug 2018, 20:00 Thanks Craig - you beat me to it!

Amanda - welcome to our EPI family. A few things stick out at me. Have you tested the B12 lately? A lot of EPI dogs have to have more than a once a month shot to keep their levels up. I would go back to the beginning and basically start over - can't tell you how many times I've had to do that - feed smaller meals 2-3x a day so if you're feeding a total of 4 cups a day 2 cups at each meal would be the most I would feed - if you're feeding 6cups a day I would feed 3x a day 2 cups each. I would also go back to the beginning of 1 level teaspoon of enzymes per cup of food, mix in luke warm water, mix with food and incubate for 20-30 minutes.

If you could add a signature to your profile with your diagnosis date, test scores, current food, enzymes, supplements, etc. it will help us be better able to offer suggestions without have to ask so many questions.

Try not to worry - easier said than done I know - we are all here to help you.

amandaa
Member
Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 14 Aug 2018, 14:03

He is on the natural balance grain free sweet pea and venison formula. I just checked his bag and it say 5% fiber. I never noticed that until right now that I just looked. I order his food from chewy and on chewy it says 4% fiber which is why I picked that bag out for him. I never thought to look at the actual bag. Is wonderlabs pills?? He was taking b12 pills for 2 years before we got his b12 tested at a Specialist And his levels were really really low. How often should I retest his b12?? For his tylosin it says give 2 capsules by mouth every 12 hours. Thank you!! I’m the only one who deals with Max’s epi at home so a lot of times I don’t have anyone to fall to for help, and it can be very hard at times for me trying to find ways to make sure he is happy and healthy.





Miss Maddie Moo wrote: 14 Aug 2018, 07:45 Hello
I agree with Madelon i wouldnt go above 2cups per feeding.Go back to the 1tsp per cup of food.
Also can you tell us what food you are on ? is it below 4 % fibre and grain free.
B12 most dogs cant last a month i know mine couldnt and what alot of us do is give the wonderlabs B12 with there food.
Tylan have you chaecked the dose is correct.
So lets take a deep breath and start again.

amandaa
Member
Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 14 Aug 2018, 14:14

So I’ve been told it’s 1/2 a teaspoon of enzymes per cup of kibble. Should I do 1 full teaspoon of enzymes then per cup I give him?? I get so scared with dropping him to smaller Cups of kibble because I’m so terrified of him being less than 80lbs. He was a very skinny boy and it scares me to think of him loosing weight or eating less. I had started a journal for him but stopped a couple months but I will definitely pick it back up again.


Barb wrote: 14 Aug 2018, 13:47 Hello, Amanda,

Welcome to you and Max.

Try not to get discouraged.....we know how hard that is when our pups are not doing well. We have all been where you are.

I agree with what has been said about dosage of enzymes. I would go back to 1 teaspoon of enzymes per cup and give 2 cups of food per meal. I also have a dog who could not hold his B12, so we supplemented with Wonderlabs Pet Factor (with Intrinsic Factor) after the initial round of injections. He still takes the B12 pills.

I would also recommend keeping a daily log/journal of everything you give Max and the amounts and the resulting poos. This will help you to see what is working and what isn't. There is something about seeing it written down that clarifies it for us. You can download a blank log form from our site, or just keep a notebook.

Many, many of our dogs have had setbacks where we have to "go back to the drawing board" and start again. It is like solving a mystery. You keep gathering the clues until you find the right combinations that lead to solutions.

Ask as many questions as you have or vent if you need to.

Barb

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Miss Maddie Moo
Staff
Posts: 120
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Miss Maddie Moo » 14 Aug 2018, 15:02

The fact that he isnt eating can indicate a couple of things.
1 If the b12 is low this can indciate that you havent eradciated the SIBO it may be that you need a more hard bat antibtoic like Metro or your tylan dose isnt correct.
2 Which B12 tablets did you use we reommend the B12 form wonderlabs with intrinsic factor in.
3 will he eat food without the enzymes ---or is it just the enzymed food that he wont touch trying to determine what is going on ???

If the SIBO is bad he will have a prrly stomach and wont eat.
If its the enzymed food then we need to mask it with parmesen or sardines something high smelling.
Or it could be that he has another condition of we can rule the others out this is a possibilty.
Maddie DX April 2011 along with low B12 she was feed with a low fibre food below 3% , fat was not restricted ( she wasnt good on pea based foods ) She initially had a course of B12 shots weekly over a period of 6 months and then we used the B12 pills from Chemeyes in the UK . We used Panzym and slowly had to increase the dose as she aged when she was first DX she was 23kg but she gained weight quickly and got back to 33 kg .
Maddie gained her angel wings in Jan 2018 at the age of 10 to a condition unrelated to EPI.
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