I need help stabilizing max!!

Epi4Dogs Foundation Inc.’s mission is the advancement of science and education relating to EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency), yielding useful insights and positive outcomes in better managing EPI in dogs and cats. Our goals are to support and/or collaborate with veterinary EPI research and researchers, and to promote EPI awareness by educating the general public, pet owners, pet organizations, rescue and shelter organizations, veterinary schools and veterinarians.
amandaa
Member
Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 15 Aug 2018, 00:43

I’m going to get him retested on his b12 level. I’ve read where it needs to be given often but I figured since the specialist said he should be good for once a month spot of b12 that he’d be okay.


Riley's Mom wrote: 14 Aug 2018, 16:55 I'm sorry to hear you are struggling with your pup.
I too have a picky eater that sometimes cleans her plate and sometimes won't even eat half of her food. My girl seems to keep herself at a steady weight on her own this way....but it is frustrating for me.
I try different things to keep her interested, changing what I top her food with (cheese is her favorite), I also make bone broth to mix her enzymes in instead of water. She will not eat food with enzymes mixed in water--acts like I am trying to poison her. :lol:
I also wonder about the B12 levels. Many dogs need injections more often than once a month. I have switched to the pills, but when I did injections I had to give them once a week. When my girl's B12 is low her appetite is poor, her anxiety is worse and her poops aren't as good. So maybe you could discuss with your vet about injections more often.
Sometimes when the poops won't get consistent, the food doesn't agree...maybe that is an area you could look at as well.

Paige's Guardian
Member
Posts: 49
Country: United States
State: Arizona

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Paige's Guardian » 15 Aug 2018, 07:01

For enzyme Diane powder, is he on 6x or 8x? For 6x, it is 1 tsp per cup of food..

I agree with Madelon. Go back to the basics. I would not recommend free feeding but will see what other suggest. Free feeding is just too hard to keep track of.... When my Dane ate too much in one meal, she had soft stools. It seems her system could only process so much at one time.

I have a Great Dane and she has gotten skinny at times but bounced back once everything was stable. She has been as low as 89 pounds and as high as 104 pounds. She is battling SID/SIBO right now. She has been on wonderlabs B12/intrinsic factor and when she had that checked her B12 and Folate were actually in the normal range for the first time ever.

For Tylan, I use the powder and am not familiar with the pills. What is the dosage you are giving him?

Great idea using the journal.

Conny
Paige's Guardian (Conny)

Paige, 8-year old Great Dane.

Dx: Malabsorption at age 9 months of age. Low Folate. On plant enzymes for 1.5 years. Experienced bloat 2x and Pancreatitis. Switched to Enzyme Diane. TLI tested but never low. Diarrhea when off enzymes.
06/2019--cPL <50 (normal) SID-Tylan 3/8 tsp 2x/day. 1 tsp Pancreatin 6x per meal. Royal Canon Hydrolyzed Protein Dry Food

amandaa
Member
Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 15 Aug 2018, 10:20

I’m going to get his b12 retested to see where we stand with it and how much more often he needs b12. He was on the wonderlabs pet factor b12 pills for 2 years, and when we got him tested in dec. of 2017 the specialist had told me that his levels were really low and looked as if his body hadn’t been in taking the b12, which is why I stopped using the pills and went to the shots instead. Do you know of any other brands with fat below 4%, I would love a few more options for him to choose from. I’m can be picky when it comes to dog and cat food, but with max it’s hard a bit harder. I don’t do vet prescribed food at all and there are certain brands I won’t do at all, but I’m starting to realize that I may have not have to many choices for him.

Olesia711 wrote: 14 Aug 2018, 23:45 HI Amanda,

Sorry i am just now getting to your post. Maddie covered the variety of possibilities, if you could answer some of her questions that would better help us help you..... but just reading what you have written so far... it could be possible that what you are dealing with is both low B12 and SID (formerly called SIBO). Unfortunately, SID can encourage low B12. And 5% fiber content food... that may also be a contributing factor. I found that for us personally a 3.5% fiber content food works MUCH better than 4% fiber content food- -never realized that just 1/2% could make that much difference.... so you might want to try a food with a lot less fiber content first. Start with a small bag of food (just in case it doesn't work) ... maybe look at Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream... (you can get it from Cheweys) and i think that it is only 3% fiber content... see if this helps ... and i would order Wonderlabs Pet Factor B12 https://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=K9688... especially if your pup had low B12 before. Unfortunately with a chronic condition (and EPI is a chronic condition), if the B12 is low , even after you bring up the B12, you will then have to keep the dog on a maintenance B12 regimen for the rest of it's life....for some reason, vets miss this little detail.... maybe because with jsut low B12 and if a chronic condition is not involved you do not need to supplement for the rest of their lives.............,

anyway... hope this helps and as mentioned, please realize that although this most likely is EPI related.... sometimes it is not EPI related.........so we have to be open to other possibilities.......

Looking forward to hearing more from you :)

User avatar
Riley's Mom
Staff
Posts: 203
Country: United States
State: Virginia

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Riley's Mom » 15 Aug 2018, 10:27

If you go to the home page and hover over Managing EPI, a drop down list appears. In that list is a tab called Dog Food Options. There is a pretty large list of foods other members have had success with. It is by no means your only options, but will give you a place to start.
When my girl was first diagnosed I printed it up and went to Petsmart and was there for hours. They must have thought I was crazy!
I would suggest to buy the smallest bag possible in case it doesn't suit your pup. Keep careful notes about the poops, there is a down loadable journal page on this site.
Elisabeth

Riley is a 10 year old Labradoodle. She was diagnosed with EPI in 2014.
She currently eats Taste of the Wild, I cup in the morning, 2 cups in the evening, each meal with 1 Wonderlabs B12 sprinkled over her dinner. Enzymes are EnzymeDiane, 1 tsp per cup of food, mixed in home made bone broth. No other supplements or meds at this time.
Riley currently weighs about 44 pounds, which is pretty heavy for her.

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Olesia711 » 15 Aug 2018, 11:03

[quote=amandaa post_id=839 time=1534342803 user_id=199]
I’m going to get his b12 retested to see where we stand with it and how much more often he needs b12. He was on the wonderlabs pet factor b12 pills for 2 years, and when we got him tested in dec. of 2017 the specialist had told me that his levels were really low and looked as if his body hadn’t been in taking the b12, which is why I stopped using the pills and went to the shots instead. Do you know of any other brands with fat below 4%, I would love a few more options for him to choose from. I’m can be picky when it comes to dog and cat food, but with max it’s hard a bit harder. I don’t do vet prescribed food at all and there are certain brands I won’t do at all, but I’m starting to realize that I may have not have to many choices for him.


[quote=Olesia711 post_id=833 time=1534304742 user_id=48]

Hi Amanda, thank you for sharing that about the fact that his levels were still low after being on the pills.... we have seen that happen but it is very rare... usually it is the opposite... that the shots aren't working as expected and the methycobalamin version of B12 pills come to the rescue.

Since this happened to you.... definitely do the shots... but please know that B12 cannot be stopped in an EPI dog if it is ever diagnosed with low B12..... that means that you and your vet will have to re-test the B12 (as you are planning to do) and then determine how often the B12 supplementation should be administered on a maintenance basis.

Just in case the B12 is low again, even after cynacobalamin shots (this is the typical B12 serum used in the shots) then ask your vet to try the Hydroxycobalamin version of B12.......that is yet another version of b12 that TAMU recommends when Cyanocobalamin fails..............

Regarding the foods.... if you are looking for a low fat AND low fiber kibble..... check out Annamaet Lean & Grain Free..... this is what i sue to supplement the home-made food i make for Izzy and it is the ONLY commercial food that keeps her stable dealing with both EPI + Diabetes... i had to find a food that not only was low in fiber (for the EPI part), but that was also low in fat (for the Diabetes part) and it was not easy to find a food that addressed both conditions... but this one did.


I order my Annamaet Lean & Grain free from Chewey :)
https://www.chewy.com/annamaet-grain-fr ... t/dp/49324
What i like is that the fat content is REAL low:
Crude Fat 7.0% min
Crude Fat 9.0% max
And the fiber is 3.5%
It does have peas in it, but only once..........not thrilled about this part.... but it's the best i could do with her two conflicting conditions that i have to keep in check.
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

User avatar
Miss Maddie Moo
Staff
Posts: 120
Country: United Kingdom - England

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Miss Maddie Moo » 15 Aug 2018, 11:51

Apart from stinky topper...just thought have you tried tripe stinky and dogs love it.
Try and feed on a flat plate not a bowl that way he doesnt smell the enzymes so much.
Maddie DX April 2011 along with low B12 she was feed with a low fibre food below 3% , fat was not restricted ( she wasnt good on pea based foods ) She initially had a course of B12 shots weekly over a period of 6 months and then we used the B12 pills from Chemeyes in the UK . We used Panzym and slowly had to increase the dose as she aged when she was first DX she was 23kg but she gained weight quickly and got back to 33 kg .
Maddie gained her angel wings in Jan 2018 at the age of 10 to a condition unrelated to EPI.
[/color]

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Olesia711 » 04 Oct 2022, 11:29

posting here to bring this topic to the current page for Max's owner ...................
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

amandaa
Member
Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 04 Oct 2022, 12:02

amandaa wrote: 13 Aug 2018, 13:45 My baby max is a 3 year old, 80lb German Shepard. He was diagnosed with epi when he was around a year old.He gets feed 1–2 a day 4 cups each meal. He gets his enzymes from enzyme Diane. He gets three scoops of enzymes and the measurement is 1/2 teaspoon. I’ve tried him with 4 and even 5 scoops of enzymes but it wasn’t working for him. I just tried him on 3 scoops three days ago and i thought we had a winner. But this morning he has gone poop 3xs and it’s just super soft and sloppy, if that makes any sense. He’s on tylosin and has been on it since feb. of 2018. He gets a total of 4 pills a day, two in the morning and two in the evening but even with the pills his poop has not firmed up like a normal dogs poop should be. He gets a b12 shot every month and is due for his shot next week. Ever since he was diagnosed about 2 years ago I have yet to get him stable, and I feel completely lost and helpless. Im not sure what I’m doing wrong or what I need to do to help my furbaby and stablize him.

amandaa
Member
Posts: 14
Location: Hayward
Country: United States
State: California
Pet name: Max
My name: Amanda

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by amandaa » 04 Oct 2022, 12:08

Hi I’m sorry this is my original post that was intended to be sent. I’m not so tech savvy I’m sorry for any confusion.
Hi my name is Amanda my fur baby is Max. He is a 7 1/2 year old German Shepard. It’s been a few years since I’ve came on here and have asked for help but I’m completely lost and I feel like a terrible dog mom. Max was diagnosed with EPI when he was about a year old. He gets his b12 shots monthly, he gets 1 tab of a 20mg Pepcid twice a day due to lots of acid reflex and his enzymes. His enzymes fluctuate, every now and then I have to change his dose depending on his flare ups and how his poops look. At the moment he is getting 4 1/2 tspn of enzymes. He gets feed 4 cups once a day, a dinner meal. I soak his enzymes with warm water and I let him food soak in his bowl. When we first started this journey I would let his food soak about 35 mins, I am now soaking his food for a good 2 hours and having to hand feed him due to sores/lesions caused in his nose. I will insert a photo so everyone is able to see. His vet was adamant that the enzymes do not cause sores, to which I told her they most definitely do as he’s had sores on his lips in the very beginning of his epi journey when both him and I were learning the proper way to feed him. After she did her research she then told me that it is possible the sores he is having is from his enzymes however she is concerned about him now having lupus. Because his food is typically a bit mushy from the water he has a tendency to dig his face in his bowl to eat his food. For the past 2 weeks I have been hand feeding him to allow these sores/lesions to heal. I clean his nose daily but I’m just not sure if this is actually caused by the enzymes or if he has lupus. I. I feel like a Terrible dog mom because I don’t know how to help him. I took on full responsibility of him when I was 17 years old and have taken care of him and his epi all on my own. I have brought him from severally malnourished, underweight, and uncontrolled epi to a beautiful healthy 96lb good boy. Any time he is sick or something is wrong I feel as if I’m not doing enough or have failed in taking care of him. I have done some much research, I have cleaned his nose daily, I apply a cream inside his nose daily, but I’m not sure if I’m helping him at all. I will attempt to insert a photo of his nose.
Sorry I’m not super tech savvy and I attempted to load his photo but if someone can let me know if they have the same issues with any of their fur babies and also how to properly insert a photo so every has an idea of what it looks like ( yes I did look at the tip section and still couldn’t upload a photo). Sorry for the long letter here I just need help!!

User avatar
Olesia711
Founder & Research Director
Posts: 3857
Location: North Carolina
Country: United States
State: North Carolina
Pet name: Izzy
My name: olesia

Re: I need help stabilizing max!!

Post by Olesia711 » 04 Oct 2022, 12:20

the picture did not show. i'll email you instructions
Olesia, was owned by Izzy, a 35lb Spanish Water Dog (SWD), Diagnosed at 1.5 years old - TLI results 1.. Izzy passed away on February 13, 2020 at 15 years old. She lived with EPI for 13+1/2 years. It was because of Izzy that Epi4Dogs was started... she was the inspiration. May her legacy of helping others with EPI continue for as long as needed.........

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 232 guests